Computer assisted hand contollers.........

[Springbok Racer]

Hi guys,

I don't know how many of the drivers in Toronto noticed the controller setup that the 'Checca's' were using. I did, but unfortunately due to the language barrier was not able to understand it fully.

Here is what I observed:

- their controller was linked (wireless) to a laptop at their work space.
- it would appear that the controller transmitted information (telemetry data) back to the laptop. This data appeared in graphic format and seems to overlay one lap after another.
- they practiced only on lane 2 and lane 7 and some of you may remember that they stayed on these lanes for a very long time.
- it was also very obvious that they were focussed on their controllers a lot more than is usual - remember the many times they would simply stop in 'bad' spots or when they were having some unexplained run-away problems with their controllers?

Now how about this senario:

- by getting a rhythm for a track/lane and repeating it long enough it would be possible to setup an ultimate rhythm for a lap. By using the outer lanes to set the rhythm it it easier for the computer to adjust to the smoother inner lanes.
- the only thing left to do is to tell the computer at which point in this lap it actually start (the start line), otherwise just let the computer pick up the rhythm over the period of a few laps.
- it is also possible to allow the computer to re-establish the desired rhythm for the lap after an extended delay (during a deslot for instance, or track call). Thereby progressively altering the braking and acceleration points during the lap to produce the utimate laptime.
- of course it is also possible to disrupt the computer input by simply 'swiching' it off from the controller or interupting it's input via means from the controller - for instance in high traffic situations.

Makes you think, doesn't it ............ maybe something, maybe nothing....:confused:

Cheers

Jan

[Nick AKA Cheater]

Hey Jan,

I noticed the same thing..
I know some time ago that Fransesc Reyes, a well known spanish manufacturor, told me that he was working on a controller, sounding similar to the one you are describing. I don't know if Fransesc continued the work, and even if the Checa's were maybe using his controller, I don't know...

But if indeed the computer generates a rythim, which influences the driver's input, I'd be very much against this kind of development.
I must say, it's a quite dary project, given the amount of unknown factors on a racetrack which influences anyone's rythim..
grip, motordropoff, traffic, you name it.

But it also let's me to think on the discussion there was some time ago in Formule1, where they could let a F1 car driven by computer, without needing human assistance.

I think, should this controller work to perfection and therefore improving someone's driving skills by computer this controller should not be allowed in our type of racing. Because if you make a mistake, you make a mistake! The computer linked to the laptop should not be allowed to intervene, nor making you go faster :(

[Rolf]

I know that there are several producers of controllers that have a feature where you can connect the controller your computer. Slotit have had one for years. I saw Gorm had one of these at the IMCA worlds in 2007. He was not using it at the race it was a controller he mainly used for 1:32.

Do not know exactly what the computer did, but Gorm can for sure tell us :)

A rule that states that a computer cannot be connected to the controller during racing might be an option anyway.

Rolf

[Gorm]

The Slot.It controler can be connected to a computer, but only for data collecting and computing - nothing goes from the computer to the controler. So it is only for collecting data of the cars performance and drivers stability -
And I never got used to drive with this controler, I prefer my danish CarSteen controler which is very easy to adjust to any track.


Brgds

[Checa]

Helo:
The same to Slot.it controler is the new DS Witec used in Toronto for my son Javi.
The conexion wireless is only to send the diferents setting previously mades in the PC. No possible control race
You can buy this hand controller in september in Cric Crac
The other controler used for me is the Jet 3 Franspeed used by Francesc Reyes in Herentals 2008
Regards

[Nick AKA Cheater]

Hey javier,

thanks for your explanation.

Why did your car and your son's, sometimes stop without warning in the middle of the track? And when you tried to give power, nothing happened. Or what I also saw, is sometimes the car didn't brake AT ALL at the end of the straight, repeatedly, obviously not being any driver's error.

Normally if my car did that to me, I'd run around and look after the braids, or the pignon perhaps...:wavey[1]:
but you only went to get your computer, and as soon as it was in range, your controller seemed to work fine again.

Again, without having detailed knowledge of this technogy, let's me to think that the computer does interact with the controller.. right? :wavey[1]:

[Checa]

Hello:
Exactly, imposible control race with that controler.
The problem in Toronto was the 40 amperes of power track , no 5 for lane, but 40 for all.
Javi say: when a lot of drivers are bracking, all the amperes go to their hand controller and crash de setup, crash de brake, ...
Here in Europe we run with max 10 amperes by lane and no problem.
Regards

[Springbok Racer]

Hello:
Exactly, imposible control race with that controler.
The problem in Toronto was the 40 amperes of power track , no 5 for lane, but 40 for all.
Javi say: when a lot of drivers are bracking, all the amperes go to their hand controller and crash de setup, crash de brake, ...
Here in Europe we run with max 10 amperes by lane and no problem.
Regards

Javier,

I cannot help to wonder why nobody else had that problem ............ in fact, I race on many tracks where there is only one power supply for all the lanes, and have never come accross that problem.................:rolling:

It seems I need a lot more experience of racing at this level..........:BangHead:

Cheers

Jan

[Checa]

Hello:
Probably was the problem with the 40 amperes but the controller is a prototipe and is posible have any other mistakes.
Cric Crac is studing that.
Saludos

[lotus4ever]

I just talked to a friend of mine who is working on a brand new micro processor controller, and he confirms that it is imposible to make a "driver aid" in the form of a pre-programmed "perfect lap". In other words, he says that there is no way a controller can be made at present where the human input is below 90% of the function.

However, this new controllers types like the Slot.it, Franspeed and the Cric Crac prototype the Checa's used are all programabel when it concernes the the curve of power from controller to track. This means that using the PC you fine tune the controller and program the microprocessor in the controller to give you the exact amount of gain, full speed, brake etc. The flip side of this is that if the controller gets a power surge, in this case the amps goes above the max. of 10 amps that this controller obviousely can handel it erases the setup!!

Thats why you loose power completely and the car stops in the middel of a lane, and thats also why brake is completely lost.

My point here is that we should all calm down a bit, the language barrier is surely the biggest problem in understanding what these new controllers does and does not.

Fact is, they do not have the capability to pre-program THE PERFECT LAP!

[Tamar]

Hey guys

Every once in a while topics like this appear on the slot fora. As always the story is about "computer assisted driving" ;)
The technique to let a computer "drive" a slotcar has been available for some years...aka the SCX trainer.
But racing it on the edge...now that's a whole different story.
I guess that in the end someone will undoubtly perfect it...just because it can be done.

Which is why we added this article to our General tech rules a long time ago


3.2 Controller
Any device operated by a driver regulating the electric power to control the speed of a slotcar is counted as a controller.
All Controllers are subject to inspection by the T.C. to verify compliance with the rules.
They must:
Only regulate the supplied power for use on a given track.
Not increase of the Lane voltage in reference to the power supply voltage.
Regulation of the supplied power must be operated manually by the driver, automated operation of the controller is not allowed.


If a racer suspects something "fishy" about a controller...just speak up.
Remember...fair competition doesn't depend so much on good rules, but on good communication...
..which for as far as I've seen here...
...seems to be working fine ;)

[Nick AKA Cheater]

yes, good communication is important...
... would have saved us an empty spot on the grid in Toronto...

Jan asked the question about this controller, and it was slipping in the back of my mind after Toronto..

So Javier (or others)
Do I understand it correctly that the computer allows you to change the curve and sensitivity on your controller? so kind off like the controller Mike was using, the 'nuclear' controller, in which you can plug a number of chips to get the right curve?

But then I still don't understand why the controller has to be in range of the computer?

[lotus4ever]

If the controller that Checa used in Toronto works the way my buddy explained there is no reason for it to be in range. What Checa says is that the controller was designed for 10 amp peaks, if I understand it correctly. So a power surge over 10 amps erases the Random Access Memory of the controller. Thats why it looses it's functions. So it only needs to be in range to register the movements of the trigger and the power going through it, and it needs to be hooked up to the PC to get the RAM programed. Again if I understand this correctly!

Another thing is that there are no sensors in the car to record wheelspin, angel of slip etc., so there is no way you can make i.e. traction controll or anti spin.

I think we need to see how controller development moves, and take the suggestion from Tamar about the part about a controllers function into our rules for OEPS.

Good coms is essential in this day and age, so is friendship and to be able to forgive and move on....................... I don't know maybe it's something that comes with age, and I'm pushing 18 going on 50:)

[gabe]

I believe that in the first place is innovation and development - we see and embrace that with chassis, bodies, etc. I see no reason to exclude controllers from that. I can't wait to see the first controller ever to beat a lap record with any car on any track - it might eventually happen (very unlikely - see chess computers vs. humans). In the end it's the person behind the finger making the difference... :)
-g

[Checa]

Hi:
My English is not good. I write with Google translater.
I repeat: First we prepare the power curve, antispin and brake on the PC. The curves must be sent with power, so the command must be connected to the track and send wireless data previously taxed. On the hand controler there is a display for 15 different curves and three-wheel to control more finely the antispin, braking and cornering power. No possible send data from the controller to PC, but we can see in PC screen the function of curve, antispin and brake.
It is similar to the command "Franspeed 3", but wireless. Dont have more functions.
And you can soon buy in Cric Crac.
Saludos

[plafitracer]

So the 'only' thing the new DS, the Franspeed, and maybe others actually do is to enable you to record the driving, then you load the data to a PC, analyze it and adjust the controller accordingly.

This is exactly the same we can all do with our electronic controllers, but we cannot record the data, but have to adjust a bit here and there and usually by experience and luck...

But progress is progress - good ole Enzo didn't want automatic trannys in his cars, and especially not in the F1 cars - well, what do we have now? Maybe not automatics, but pretty darn close to it - along with antispin and other dohickeys...

:dancedance:

[Francesc]

Hello Friends

As a interested part in this discusion like a owner of Franspeed, i want to clarify some points about our controllers.

We have two lines of controllers, the Jet3 who is a stand alone microprocesor based controller and the Jet262 (or Jet Pro) who is a microprocesor based controller able to conect to a computer in order to configure the power maps only.

Our controllers were designed with the actual rules in mind. What means this? 1-our controllers don't alterate the voltage of the track .
2-our controllers don't increase the brake.
3-our controllers don't control the car, it's the driver who does this, our controllers only gives better feeling and control.

Our controllers pased all tests in the DPM, while other controllers failed in this point and where considered illegal.

The big advantage of the Jet262 front his competitors is the posibility to configure the response in a easy way and to save the adjustements in the computer. Also the users can share this adjustements with the import and export features of the software.

A lot of years ago, we need to buy a lot of controllers with diferent resistors in order to control the diferent kinds of motors. With the electronic controllers we don't need to buy this quantity of controllers, because an electronic controller has a wide range of adjustements.
With our Jet262 we go one step further, because you can set up the perfect "resistor" for your needs, and save in your computer for later use.
For example, you can prepare some maps for the proslot euro motor and other maps for the Bison motor, when you want to race with Bison, you load into the controller the maps for Bison, if you want to race with Proslot Euro, you can load the maps for this motor.

The idea is the same used in the injection power maps for the F1 and MotoGP motors, is not an auto pilot system.

The Jet262 is not a prototype, it's not a copy, it's real , can conect to a computer from the first day, and it's available for more than a year.

[Springbok Racer]

.........don't you guys just love this forum? I have learned so much from all these comments that I'm amazed at the amount of brain power being exercised on 'slot cars'....

Keep it coming, shortly someone is going to tell us how the impossible is possible!!

Cheers

Jan

[lotus4ever]

Jan, slotracing in many ways is developing as much as any 1:1 race car technology. Our biggest problem however is size and weight. So even the combined brain power of all us slot nutters wont be able to give us traction controll or anti spin sometime soon.

I am sure however that if developments go in the wrong direction, which by the way I do not think these new microprocessor controllers do, we will try to make rules that gives the controll back to the brain and the finger that controls the controller!

I came to think about Formula 1 going through these posts. A few years ago most F1 cars had automatic gearshift, traction controll, antispin etc. Maybe it's because I'm old that this seems wrong. Maybe it is because I can remember the 1972 Monaco Grand Prix (The one race broadcast on Danish TV at the time) where Jean Pierre Beltoise won in torential rain in his BRM P160. All the driver aids he had at the time was his intellect, brainpower in other words and the explicit sensitivety in his back side! Think also to Senna's win in Portugal in 1985, also in torential rain, he was in the 1200 HP turbo Lotus Renault monster, again the only drivers aid was between Senna's ears.

But technology is here for good, and we embrase it, even in slot racing, hopefully however the ultimate controll of our little cars are still controlled by our brains!!

[Nick AKA Cheater]

thanks Fransesc and Javier,

for the explanations.
I still don't understand it all completely, but that's probably cause I'm an absolute numb-nut when it comes to electronics. :wavey[1]:

Actually the possibility to load different maps into your controller for different motors like Fransesc explained, sounds pretty cool. :nice:

Although I'm quite happy with the pretty standard controller I now use, I'd love to try one of the 'fly by wire' controllers sometime. :autofahrer[1]:

[AndyWasserman]

Come on guys, didn't you see my WIFI jammer in race control? Did you think it was the track power that making the cars stop??????? I have to have some fun, too!! :banana: :autofahrer[1]:

Seriously, innovation is cool as long as it falls into the "rule set" and keeps the driver in control. I'm sure the "rules" will be amended to deal with things like computers driving the cars..etc...

Andy Wasserman

[Checa]

It's for sale the new Witec controller for 149€ in Cric Crac.

[FromtheDarkside]

A simple answer is for the controllers mentioned is....have the computers turn off.

that would solve any foreseeable problems

Not trying to cause a problem...but a computer should not be allowed to send a signal to the controller


Mike

[Springbok Racer]

A simple answer is for the controllers mentioned is....have the computers turn off.

that would solve any foreseeable problems

Not trying to cause a problem...but a computer should not be allowed to send a signal to the controller


Mike

Mike,

Absolutely mate.:BangHead::lightbulb::nice:

Cheers

Jan

[dirk]

Hey guys as i read this tread and if i understand Javier correctly. The computer needs to be in range to resend the data to the controller once it has been erased.

So the problem is that the controller cannot keep the settings in his memory once it has been disconnected from the power or when it gets erased (what is logical) . So if the computer is off the controller doesn't work....????

when i try to read http://www.ibbautoracing.com/newsletter/pdf/instruccions_wi_tec_%28original%29.pdf what is the manual of the controller i can see that there is a maximum of 7Amps it can take so more could erase the settings.

so if someone could get an english version of this document i think we could be wiser :-)

[Bill AKA TB Boots]

when i try to read http://www.ibbautoracing.com/newsletter/pdf/instruccions_wi_tec_%28original%29.pdf what is the manual of the controller i can see that there is a maximum of 7Amps it can take so more could erase the settings.

so if someone could get an english version of this document i think we could be wiser :-)

Use googe translate works like a charm :dancedance:

[dirk]

i know Mr B but there should be an english version for the thing somewhere i hope :mf_hide: without having to translate all the text